Discussion:
ShadowPlan for Blackberry 10
rider997
2013-03-14 20:06:36 UTC
Permalink
Here's your chance to enter a burgeoning marketplace that's currently uncrowded in the business app space- the Blackberry 10 ecosystem.

Plenty of business users, a huge number of people upgrading from older Blackberry devices who are used to actually paying (!) for software rather than getting it for free, and essentially no current competition in Shadow's category.

Just some food for thought, Jeff.

I'm still waiting for a link to www.kickstarter.com/projects/shadowplan :-)
skeezix
2013-03-21 16:12:38 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Mar 2013, rider997 wrote:

# Here's your chance to enter a burgeoning marketplace that's currently uncrowded in the business app space- the Blackberry 10 ecosystem.
#
# Plenty of business users, a huge number of people upgrading from older Blackberry devices who are used to actually paying (!) for software rather than getting it for free, and essentially no current competition in Shadow's category.
#
# Just some food for thought, Jeff.
#
# I'm still waiting for a link to www.kickstarter.com/projects/shadowplan :-)

*g* yeahm, I thought of that as well; course, BB10 is being a port
target for Android apps, so is flooding up quick I think. But to target
BB10 I should've started long ago..

I was just talking to some people and the question I have is,
aside from all the crazy technology is .. what do people want anymore? ie:
On the one side is fast and simple list/task mamagement, all native. On
the other end of the continuum is a full cloud app, or web app; in the
middle is an integration app, that has part native, but talks to all sorts
of other onlnie services.. you know, these apps that tie into google
calendar and facebook addresses and all that mess.

I've always been someone who leans to powerful yet simple .. I'm
not interested in security risks of cloud apps and so on, and the
instability in tieing all these ever-changing APIs together, etc. So
people, the audience, have moved on ....

As you can see, I'm more on the simple fast side of the continuum,
but I'm not sure what people want anymore :)

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.
Anita Lewis
2013-03-21 18:02:59 UTC
Permalink
I use two programs and neither one is right. One is Our Groceries. I
can make lists of things, but no outline and no notes. The other is
Evernote and that is way too much nonsense and is more like post-it
notes. Both of these programs sync, one to web only and Evernote to web
and program on my Desktop. I miss the outliner. I would be happy if I
could just make an outline and transfer the outline file over to my
computer and open it there. That is how I used to "sync" Shadow,
because I use Linux. So, for me, Shadow on Android producing a raw file
that I can open with Shadow in Linux would be great. I loved the
outliner for planning. For a simple grocery list anything works, but
Shadow was nice for that too. I do love my Google Nexus Tablet and
admit it is much better than the Zire Palm and the OS is better, too. I
don't think Android is going away very soon, so maybe a nice outliner
would sell for Android.

Anita
Post by skeezix
I was just talking to some people and the question I have is,
On the one side is fast and simple list/task mamagement, all native. On
the other end of the continuum is a full cloud app, or web app; in the
middle is an integration app, that has part native, but talks to all sorts
of other onlnie services.. you know, these apps that tie into google
calendar and facebook addresses and all that mess.
I've always been someone who leans to powerful yet simple .. I'm
not interested in security risks of cloud apps and so on, and the
instability in tieing all these ever-changing APIs together, etc. So
people, the audience, have moved on ....
As you can see, I'm more on the simple fast side of the continuum,
but I'm not sure what people want anymore :)
jeff
Anita Lewis
2013-03-22 10:50:10 UTC
Permalink
I use two programs and neither one is right. One is Our Groceries. I
can make lists of things, but no outline and no notes. The other is
Evernote and that is way too much nonsense and is more like post-it
notes. Both of these programs sync, one to web only and Evernote to web
and program on my Desktop. I miss the outliner. I would be happy if I
could just make an outline and transfer the outline file over to my
computer and open it there. That is how I used to "sync" Shadow,
because I use Linux. So, for me, Shadow on Android producing a raw file
that I can open with Shadow in Linux would be great. I loved the
outliner for planning. For a simple grocery list anything works, but
Shadow was nice for that too. I do love my Google Nexus Tablet and
admit it is much better than the Zire Palm and the OS is better, too. I
don't think Android is going away very soon, so maybe a nice outliner
would sell for Android.

Anita
Post by skeezix
I was just talking to some people and the question I have is,
On the one side is fast and simple list/task mamagement, all native. On
the other end of the continuum is a full cloud app, or web app; in the
middle is an integration app, that has part native, but talks to all sorts
of other onlnie services.. you know, these apps that tie into google
calendar and facebook addresses and all that mess.
I've always been someone who leans to powerful yet simple .. I'm
not interested in security risks of cloud apps and so on, and the
instability in tieing all these ever-changing APIs together, etc. So
people, the audience, have moved on ....
As you can see, I'm more on the simple fast side of the continuum,
but I'm not sure what people want anymore :)
jeff
skeezix
2013-03-27 01:33:12 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Mar 2013, Anita Lewis wrote:

# I use two programs and neither one is right. One is Our Groceries. I
# can make lists of things, but no outline and no notes. The other is
# Evernote and that is way too much nonsense and is more like post-it
# notes. Both of these programs sync, one to web only and Evernote to web

What about CarbonFin Outliner? I always thought he was spiritually
similar to earlier Shadow .. trying to keep it tight; same sor tof icons
sometimes, too :O

# and program on my Desktop. I miss the outliner. I would be happy if I
# could just make an outline and transfer the outline file over to my
# computer and open it there. That is how I used to "sync" Shadow,
# because I use Linux. So, for me, Shadow on Android producing a raw file
# that I can open with Shadow in Linux would be great. I loved the
# outliner for planning. For a simple grocery list anything works, but
# Shadow was nice for that too. I do love my Google Nexus Tablet and
# admit it is much better than the Zire Palm and the OS is better, too. I
# don't think Android is going away very soon, so maybe a nice outliner
# would sell for Android.

Building a basic outliner that just stores as JSON or XML is not
too hard; like, a really basic one could be done in a couple of days
("famous last words").

I've been tempted to whip something up like that, really ghetto
and no features, just to have one handy myself ;) (I use a Nexus 7 quite a
bit, but have an iOS phone.. It'd have to work for both, interopably.)

I'm afraid to go there.. that path leads to whole application
suites :O

Damn you all you tempting people ..

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.
skeezix
2013-03-27 01:40:08 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013, skeezix wrote:

# Building a basic outliner that just stores as JSON or XML is not

A year back I was fiddling around with ideas for the UI, to make
it swift and interesting; I had some pretty neat ideas (not sure how
they'd work in practice, but sounded good in my head.)

But if you just wanted a really basic guy that showed..

File picker screen (perhaps swipe left/right to get it)
- open file
- delete file
- new file

List screen
- button bar at bottom:
- new item
- new child item
- push up/down/left/right
- delete item
- tap to select entry

The trick is editing; recall Shadow had inline-edit and also a
more detailed detail-panel

Thats where it gets into a bit of work.

This woudl all be very basic, and styled after the decade-old Palm
app idea (pretty lame.)

... doing it fancy, like I was thinking a year ago, is a tonne of
work, and people like smooth flashy graphics and swooshy effects nowadays.
I'm not an effects guy ..

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.
Ray McDowell
2013-03-27 02:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jeff,

Remember Fields of Dreams.

Build it and we will come. If not in droves, in fanatic shadowplan-loving cliques.

Whatever, thanks for one of the coolest, most functional palm applications ever invented.

Ray McDowell




________________________________
From: skeezix <***@skeleton.org>
To: shadow-***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] ShadowPlan for Blackberry 10


 
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013, skeezix wrote:

# Building a basic outliner that just stores as JSON or XML is not

A year back I was fiddling around with ideas for the UI, to make
it swift and interesting; I had some pretty neat ideas (not sure how
they'd work in practice, but sounded good in my head.)

But if you just wanted a really basic guy that showed..

File picker screen (perhaps swipe left/right to get it)
- open file
- delete file
- new file

List screen
- button bar at bottom:
- new item
- new child item
- push up/down/left/right
- delete item
- tap to select entry

The trick is editing; recall Shadow had inline-edit and also a
more detailed detail-panel

Thats where it gets into a bit of work.

This woudl all be very basic, and styled after the decade-old Palm
app idea (pretty lame.)

... doing it fancy, like I was thinking a year ago, is a tonne of
work, and people like smooth flashy graphics and swooshy effects nowadays.
I'm not an effects guy ..

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wolfram Kuss
2013-03-27 14:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by skeezix
# Building a basic outliner that just stores as JSON or XML is not
But if you just wanted a really basic guy that showed [...]
For *me* it would need these in addition:

- I would need to be able to convert my Shadow files and not loose
major data. I would be willing to write a converter myself, but the
new app would at least have to support "creation date" of notes.
It would be nice to have fields like "tags" so we can keep that data
from Shadowplan; For now the new app might ignore those field(s).

- A search at least like Shadowplan. My lists are too big to handle
without it.

- A desktop partner would not be needed straight away. If, for example
one can use the app on the PC by using Bluestack and there is hope of
a desktop partner program later on, that would be enough for me.

- What you plan to write would run offline and would use unicode,
right?
Post by skeezix
The trick is editing; recall Shadow had inline-edit and also a
more detailed detail-panel
I am not sure what inline-edit means.
The detailed detail-panel can be left off in a first version for me.
Post by skeezix
... doing it fancy, like I was thinking a year ago, is a tonne of
work, and people like smooth flashy graphics and swooshy effects nowadays.
Unfortunately :-(.
The amount of money and press coverage something like Evernote gets is
really suprising and sad :-(
Post by skeezix
jeff
Bye bye,
Wolfram.
skeezix
2013-04-01 02:00:33 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 27 Mar 2013, Wolfram Kuss wrote:

# - I would need to be able to convert my Shadow files and not loose
# major data. I would be willing to write a converter myself, but the
# new app would at least have to support "creation date" of notes.
# It would be nice to have fields like "tags" so we can keep that data
# from Shadowplan; For now the new app might ignore those field(s).

Conversion of Shadow to anything is pretty easy (at least for me,
given its all my fault ;)

# - A search at least like Shadowplan. My lists are too big to handle
# without it.

gads, you're making me need to start a to-do list, and I'm not
even commiting to anything yet ;)

# - A desktop partner would not be needed straight away. If, for example
# one can use the app on the PC by using Bluestack and there is hope of
# a desktop partner program later on, that would be enough for me.

My fiddling about was leveraging a cross platform toolkit, whereby
the mobile app runs on desktop as well, or at least is mostly compatible..
so yeah, desktop + mobile; and if they talk, likely be via somethign
running on one of my servers or via dropbox or something. Not really
interested at all in writing 'sync code' to various backends, at least
anytime early on.

# - What you plan to write would run offline and would use unicode,
# right?

To be clear, there is no plan yet; its tantalizing, but I'm not
committing yet; just sort of sizing it in my head. If you can get me
excited about it, and if some of the technology keeps working, then may
well happen, at a _minimal_ level.

Android first, since it has a lower barrier to entry imho, for the
tech I'm leveraging. But the tech I'm working with also works on iOS.

Unicode day one, probably simple JSON files and not XML, but you'd
not likely care.

I've not put any thought at all into over-arching design though,
which is where it needs ot be; I'm still in frame of mind from Shadow, not
in frame of mind of fresh new designer coming in from all this new tech.

I have some cool ideas, from the old frame of reference approiach,
mind; but as I say, I'm not really interested in tieing it into all kinds
of cloud yet ;)

# > The trick is editing; recall Shadow had inline-edit and also a
# >more detailed detail-panel
#
# I am not sure what inline-edit means.
# The detailed detail-panel can be left off in a first version for me.

Shadow had two main ways of entry; in-line was where it'd let you
write text write in the main screen and it'd show up; you coudl write line
items that way, but not really put in any detail. For details such as all
the dates and tagging and other options, you'd go to the Detail panel,
which let you edit the works.. but it covered full screen of a Palm
device.

You coudl set a pref that let you default to inline or full
detail, when you started writing.

Now, in Palm land, you had grafitti/etc; in iOS and Android, you
do not.. you don't have the ability to just start writing; you need a
keyboard popup. But the same overall division exists.

Something for me to mull over.

# > ... doing it fancy, like I was thinking a year ago, is a tonne of
# >work, and people like smooth flashy graphics and swooshy effects nowadays.
#
# Unfortunately :-(.
# The amount of money and press coverage something like Evernote gets is
# really suprising and sad :-(

They (and most bigger name apps) spend a lot on artsists/graphics,
workflow swooshyness, websites, and press. I'm not really interested in
that, at least early on; could be nice to have a simple app for the needs
I have, and maybe some of you guys too. Going all the way ... well, if I
go it at all, we'd have to see how a minimal one delivers.

But these app stores are stacked against you; with the popularity
ranking and order of display, tjhey favor the existing top; the design
really tries to make it so for any given genre, you've got about 5-10 apps
in the pool, and might as well be no others. Once you're in the top, you
stay in the top.... just because the stores dont' show anyone else.

So you typically do very well, or make nothing; and an app without
swooshyness, not going to strike you average joe.

that said, if I could make an app that is basic and free, or even
$1 for basic plus a few bits, thats okay; or even charge $10 and make it
sell for many fewer people, but good people, then who knows, maybne it'd
work out in the end. But I'm more motivated for covering expenses and
trying the waters .. when you go out with guns blazing, _planning_ on
conquering th big names, thats when you have real $$$ problems :O


--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.
Wolfram Kuss
2013-04-09 16:05:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by skeezix
Conversion of Shadow to anything is pretty easy (at least for me,
given its all my fault ;)
Of course.
But I wanted to give a complete list of my requirements for you to see
how difficult it would be to create a version that people can use.
Obviously, some other people will have different requirements.
Post by skeezix
My fiddling about was leveraging a cross platform toolkit, whereby
the mobile app runs on desktop as well, or at least is mostly compatible..
Ah, cool.
Post by skeezix
Android first, since it has a lower barrier to entry imho, for the
tech I'm leveraging. But the tech I'm working with also works on iOS.
Yes, also I think (without having looked deeply) that on Android there
are less similar programs than on IOS (f.e. CarbonFin).
Post by skeezix
Unicode day one, probably simple JSON files and not XML,
Sounds good.
Post by skeezix
in iOS and Android, you
do not.. you don't have the ability to just start writing; you need a
keyboard popup.
I am not sure this is important, but dont forget people that have a
hardware keyboard, for example a bluetooth one.
Post by skeezix
They (and most bigger name apps) spend a lot on artsists/graphics,
workflow swooshyness, websites, and press.
Yes. For example, the complete German press wrote about Evernote maybe
two weeks ago because a partnership with "Deutsche Telekom" was
announced. Also, both host a "code for us" event.
Post by skeezix
But these app stores are stacked against you; with the popularity
ranking and order of display, they favor the existing top; the design
really tries to make it so for any given genre, you've got about 5-10 apps
in the pool, and might as well be no others. Once you're in the top, you
stay in the top.... just because the stores dont' show anyone else.
True to some extent.
OTOH in the Android marketplace there are categories like "new and
rising".
My feeling is the main aim of both Google and Apple is to have as many
Apps and Downloads as possible.
My feeling is the main effect of the market structures is that there
is a big pressure on developers to keep the price very low and maybe
even from time to time give it away for free (f.e. on Amazon's "free
app of the day" deal). So, they achieve many downloads, get high in
the rankings which means they will be seen by many new customers.

I think we all agree it is hard to compete in this arena. So I keep
thinking that maybe breaking the mold, going for a high price (15-50 $
) and depending on word of mouth propaganda (and the occasional blog
post) would be the better way to go for such an "old fashioned"
product.
Post by skeezix
But I'm more motivated for covering expenses and
trying the waters .. when you go out with guns blazing, _planning_ on
conquering th big names, thats when you have real $$$ problems :O
I dont know how f.e the "top non-free new" app categorie works.
It may be you are only eligbible for it for a certain amount of time
after adding the app to the market? If so, there would be some reason
to only add it after it has been polished to at least some extent.

Bye bye,
Wolfram.

Anita Lewis
2013-03-27 11:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by skeezix
CarbonFin Outliner?
That's for Apple stuff. I don't have any of those.

Anita
Wolfram Kuss
2013-03-27 14:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by skeezix
On the one side is fast and simple list/task mamagement, all native. On
the other end of the continuum is a full cloud app, or web app; in the
middle is an integration app, that has part native, but talks to all sorts
of other onlnie services.. you know, these apps that tie into google
calendar and facebook addresses and all that mess.
Probably many people want catchphrases like cloud, share, facebook
etc.
But there are also people like me, for whom this is actualy a
disadvantage. I would rather have something like Shadowplan on Palm /
Windows PC.
If you target the second, probably smaller audience, you do not get
into competition with Evernote etc.

BTW - from reading (I have not used Evernote), the one thing I like
compared to ShadowPlan is that you can add files to notes (Pictures,
Videos, Audio etc). But that can miss in V1, and launch an external
viewer in V2.
Post by skeezix
jeff
Bye bye,
Wolfram.
Linda Hoffman
2013-03-22 18:22:57 UTC
Permalink
I had so much info stored up in my old Shadow files that I literally sat &
cried when my last Palm died & I didn't know what I was going to do. I do
still use Show on my Windows 7 desktop to access those files. But would
sure love to see the outliner come back in an Android version that would
sync with the desktop.

I use all kinds of different programs trying to get outlines/lists of what
I want. Now, I can't find my info since it is stored in so many places!

Andoid outliner that would sync with desktop is my vote.

Linda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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