[SHADOW-DISCUSS] Anyone still here?

[skeezix [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

To you, what comprises the core function of Shadow .... and what
do you need today?

Every time I talked to people over the years, I got very different
answers of what they needed; many people wnated a task list with very
tight calendar integration, or todo integration and sync with itunes; or
complex filtering and project management (a la MS Project), or something
like a 4GL UI toll to make up new app-lets with a database backend, or....
you name it :) Shadow used to do a lot of things, but times have changed
...

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[[e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

Yup, still here. You have no idea how many outliners and task lists I've tried. You've spoiled them all for me :) .

Shadow was amazing because it had condensed outlines with columns, dates, times, "next task" behavior, great performance, and a whole slew of other totally optional but occasionally useful features. It's impossible to find something like that today.


Its real strength was that it was flexible and NOT opinionated. Everything out there today is judgmental. You're "supposed to" manage your tasks this way or that, or they refuse to add time support, or it's just an outliner and no more (which is supposed to be a good thing), or it's designed for project management and not personal tasks, or it's for groups as opposed to individuals, or they don't have good mobile support and aren't really interested in adding it, etc.


Your approach, on the other hand, was to listen to your customers. You struck such a great balance between a powerful feature-rich outliner and an app that was easy to use. I'm still yearning for the return of the Shadow.

[Todd Wiest [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

I’m still here and, like shovavnik, still trying to find the right tool in the sea of apps. I had a good one for the Blackberry, but it doesn’t work as well (or is it kept up-to-date) on iOS. (Another example of the ‘opinionated’ discussion below; the company only worked their Blackberry app.)

Now I’m making the move from that app to an Outlook-OneNote tandem effort. It won’t be Shadow, but it will give me the flexibility I’m looking for across my devices, I think.

Todd
PRs: 1.5mi – 9:18; 5K – 20:35; Half-marathon – 1:36:30

From: SHADOW-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SHADOW-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, 4 September, 2016 02:09
To: SHADOW-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SHADOW-DISCUSS] Re: Anyone still here?



Yup, still here. You have no idea how many outliners and task lists I've tried. You've spoiled them all for me :) .

Shadow was amazing because it had condensed outlines with columns, dates, times, "next task" behavior, great performance, and a whole slew of other totally optional but occasionally useful features. It's impossible to find something like that today.

Its real strength was that it was flexible and NOT opinionated. Everything out there today is judgmental. You're "supposed to" manage your tasks this way or that, or they refuse to add time support, or it's just an outliner and no more (which is supposed to be a good thing), or it's designed for project management and not personal tasks, or it's for groups as opposed to individuals, or they don't have good mobile support and aren't really interested in adding it, etc.

Your approach, on the other hand, was to listen to your customers. You struck such a great balance between a powerful feature-rich outliner and an app that was easy to use. I'm still yearning for the return of the Shadow.

[skeezix [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

On Sun, 4 Sep 2016, ***@gmail.com [SHADOW-DISCUSS] wrote:

# Yup, still here. You have no idea how many outliners and task lists I've tried. You've spoiled them all for me :) .

(me too, I've tried on a few ;)

# Shadow was amazing because it had condensed outlines with columns, dates, times, "next task" behavior, great performance, and a whole slew of other
# totally optional but occasionally useful features. It's impossible to find something like that today.

At the time I was trying to go for a bit of 'hypercard' type
functionality (MS Access etc), but withotu any UI complexity; just turn on
or off columns as you needed, and then we blended into items having their
own type instead of list-types and things got nutty :)

One of the core questions that comes to mind today is .. if we
made a new application, would it be a standalone (easier), or just a shell
with tentacles into everything else (harder, since you have to deal with
everything elses issues/features/limits); ie: Would a list be a standalone
list, or even part of a giant list-database so that its all
interconnected? Or would a list just be links into (say) iOS Tasks,
Calendar, Notes, etc? (Memories of DateBook on PalmOS, where the normal
Palm calendar would have comments and symbols at the end, that meant
somethign to DB :))

As mentioned.. Shadow was huge, and did a lot, but it didn't
always do those things; it started small and tight and general purpose,
and evolved as we needed. If a new app was started, it would also have to
start small .. but could starting small satisfy enough people to make it
work?

A standalone app would be much easier to put together; if it was
standalone, with a relatively simple metaphor (ie: like Shadow was
before), it wouldn't be so hard (easier to write nowadays than before, but
much higher competition, and of course.. 'swooshfactor' needing, which I
can't do; I'm just not a graphical guy ;)

# Its real strength was that it was flexible and NOT opinionated.
# Everything out there today is judgmental. You're "supposed to" manage
# your tasks this way or that, or they refuse to add time support, or it's
# just an outliner and no more (which is supposed to be a good thing), or
# it's designed for project management and not personal tasks, or it's for
# groups as opposed to individuals, or they don't have good mobile support
# and aren't really interested in adding it, etc.

You've hit the nail on the head for me as well; I'm
anti-authoritarian enough to dislike be pished in some way.. I want apps
to work for me, my way. Most people don't care (witness thigns like
Facebook trying to replace messaging and email, because we all like our
email as 4" wide columns in our 20" monitors instead of using our
preferred client.....), but _I_ care, and that was my niche. I never
intended Shadow to be #1 (we did pretty well though ;), but aimed just to
carve its niche and see how it went..

# Your approach, on the other hand, was to listen to your customers. You
# struck such a great balance between a powerful feature-rich outliner and
# an app that was easy to use. I'm still yearning for the return of the
# Shadow.

I'm not saying anything here, but, it often comes to mind. I've
gotten a fair amount of email over the years and of late (A half dozen in
the last few weeks!), so its making me curious enough to poke the bear a
little.

My time is very rough, but if we could define something tight and
small and doable, I could consider making a go of it.

.. sigh, I too have missed this group, but you guys were demons to
keep up with ;)

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[Anita Lewis [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

The core use for me was making lists of things in various projects and
being able to make notes on each item in the list. Currently I'm able to
do this with ToDoist. I still have my Linux version of Shadow, but I
haven't used it in years since I need my lists to also run on Android.

Post by skeezix ***@skeleton.org [SHADOW-DISCUSS]
To you, what comprises the core function of Shadow .... and what
do you need today?
Every time I talked to people over the years, I got very different
answers of what they needed; many people wnated a task list with very
tight calendar integration, or todo integration and sync with itunes; or
complex filtering and project management (a la MS Project), or something
like a 4GL UI toll to make up new app-lets with a database backend, or....
you name it :) Shadow used to do a lot of things, but times have changed
...
jeff
--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[[e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

I would love an updated version of Shadow to run on the iOS platform.....nothing compares to Shadow from the palm days......i used to have a case for my palm V and one for my flip phone...they called me batman as one on each side :)

I use cloud outliner 2 and Carbon Fins Outliner (both support OPML outlines exported from ECCO PRO)

[skeezix [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

On Sun, 4 Sep 2016, ***@gmail.com [SHADOW-DISCUSS] wrote:

# palm V and one for my flip phone...they called me batman as one on each side :)
# I use cloud outliner 2 and Carbon Fins Outliner (both support OPML outlines exported from ECCO PRO)

Another funny thing is.. since we didn't have dependable internet
or the like back then, we tried for 'real sync' in Palm OS apps; then
Apple came around and made it all dumber .. you just _can't_ sync at
multiple locations. That made code hard.. so, impossible! (itunes library
is in one place, and god have mercy on your soul if you play games with
it...)

But I'd still have nightmares about dealing with all those other
formats and discrepencies :) I'd end up just having a clunky 'app opens a
TCP port as a mini webserver, use your desktop browser to connect to your
devices wifi mini webserver, and upload .opml files' or something, to
avoid nasy itunes clunkyness :P (I hate hate hate itunes)

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[skeezix [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

On Sun, 4 Sep 2016, Anita Lewis ***@gmail.com [SHADOW-DISCUSS] wrote:

# The core use for me was making lists of things in various projects and being able to make notes on each item in the list.  Currently I'm able to do this
# with ToDoist.  I still have my Linux version of Shadow, but I haven't used it in years since I need my lists to also run on Android. 

Its funny to think back .. what I had originally thought about
doing, and obviously never did, was to separate 'storage' from 'display';
I had thought to make a storage item definition (title, note, checkbox,
date, etc) that you coudl toggle each element on and off from, and then a
display definition which was a little self-drawn form .. ie: put title
here, put checkbox there, etc). At the time, I ended up just defaulting
most of the display stuff.. you coudl toggle each display item on and off,
but it woudl figure out where to put them for you based on screen
realestate etc. Still, the original idea stands in a lot of ways I think..
but might be 'too much' (which is why I never went back .. felt it would
turn into 'work' for people, and they'd just go with the default layouts
anyway..)

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Neil Slater [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

JEFF!!!!

By everything holy, I have missed this forum!

It has been too long since I used Shadow... Shiva nick said most of what I could, and more. And more eloquently.

What I remember most, and miss terribly, is the date feature: being able to choose Tomorrow, Day After Tomorrow, One Week, Yesterday... By that feature alone, I judge todo lists and outliners. They ALL fail, because they don't let me work the way *I* want to, and because dates are too difficult to deal with in them all. Ya spoiled us, dude! :)

If you were to publish Shadow for iOS, exactly the way it worked on the Palm platform, I'd be over the moon. If you were to reboot Shadow only for Android, I'd follow you as fast as financially possible.

Shadow was good enough that it should be bundled with every tablet.

I don't need to sync with iTunes, don't need MS Project rebuilt; Shadow's todo list was perfect.

You were a busy new parent when Shadow went dormant. How's the family? Or is that a tactless question?

Sent with the assistance of Morse Code, slide rule, and abacus.

1a Anyone still here?
Sat Sep 3, 2016 6:23 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "skeezix" coogfoo
To you, what comprises the core function of Shadow .... and what
do you need today?
Every time I talked to people over the years, I got very different
answers of what they needed; many people wnated a task list with very
tight calendar integration, or todo integration and sync with itunes; or
complex filtering and project management (a la MS Project), or something
like a 4GL UI toll to make up new app-lets with a database backend, or....
you name it :) Shadow used to do a lot of things, but times have changed
...
jeff
--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[skeezix [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

On Sun, 4 Sep 2016, Neil Slater ***@gmail.com [SHADOW-DISCUSS] wrote:

# JEFF!!!!

*tips hat*

# It has been too long since I used Shadow... Shiva nick said most of what I could, and more. And more eloquently.

I remember he used to do that to us ;)

# What I remember most, and miss terribly, is the date feature: being able to choose Tomorrow, Day After Tomorrow, One Week, Yesterday... By that feature
# alone, I judge todo lists and outliners. They  ALL fail, because they don't let me work the way *I* want to, and because dates are too difficult to deal
# with in them all. Ya spoiled us, dude! :)

Your needs seem simple; you mean no other app has a little button
that lets you just set a date? Seems like a 1 hour add to someones app ;)

# If you were to publish Shadow for iOS, exactly the way it worked on the Palm platform, I'd be over the moon. If you were to reboot Shadow only for
# Android, I'd follow you  as fast as financially possible.

See theres the rub; I doubt I'd have time to put away a year of
dev to build an app like Shadow; it took years to get where it was, and
its 100% start over if I were to take up the mantle again.

# Shadow was good enough that it should be bundled with every tablet.

:)

# You were a busy new parent when Shadow went dormant. How's the family? Or is that a tactless question?

We wanted 3 kids, and had one.. then thought '1 was pretty good'
once we found out how much work it was; but life making you remember what
is important, we ende dup having another, bu it was twins. So, we got our
3 kids. Time flies - they're all in school these days (thankfully ;)

I have limited free time now, which has made me bow out of many
worthy projects (for awhile there I was designing and building handhelds
and all sorts of crazy awesome stuff).. but these days I work my 50 horus
a week or more, and then I spend my limited spare time making robots and
mad science to amaze the kids with. My mantra for life has always been
'never stop learning', and if I don't make something every day or two, I
get weird.

So I don't have the time I used to, but I do what I can. Family
first, safety third ;)

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Philip Bogdonoff [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

Still here. I agree with shovavnik. Still haven't found anything close to
Shadowplan.

[[e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

I still use ShadowPlan Desktop daily for my To-Do list. It's still at the center of my workflow. ShadowPlan does almost everything I need -- except filtering by date range. I wrote a program I call ShadowPlan Reporter that reads my ShadowPlan file and gives me filtering that I found hard to produce in ShadowPlan:

date filters
today
yesterday
tomorrow
date range
show all regardless of date
It also does some of the same filtering ShadowPlan does:
filter by top level (category) or second level (project)
filter by status
Completed
To Do
So I have ShadowPlan and ShadowPlan Reporter both open on my laptop and can get various views of my tasks.

I really miss ShadowPlan on my Android phone. My ToDoList Reporter programs exports to a file format that I can import into Outliner on my phone, so I can see a list of current To-do items. But ShadowPlan is so important to me that when I'm out and about I use Parallels Access to connect my phone to my computer at home and use ShadowPlan that way.

So with a little programming I've managed to keep ShadowPlan alive and well for myself. My setup now is almost as good as it was when I had ShadowPlan on my Palm Zire 72 and ShadowPlan Desktop on my Windows XP laptop. Almost!

[skeezix [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

On Sun, 4 Sep 2016, ***@comcast.net [SHADOW-DISCUSS] wrote:

# I still use ShadowPlan Desktop daily for my To-Do list.  It's still at the center of my workflow. ShadowPlan does almost everything I need -- except
# filtering by date range. I wrote a program I call ShadowPlan Reporter that reads my ShadowPlan file and gives me filtering that I found hard to produce
# in ShadowPlan:
:
# So with a little programming I've managed to keep ShadowPlan alive and well for myself. My setup now is almost as good as it was when I had ShadowPlan on
# my Palm Zire 72 and ShadowPlan Desktop on my Windows XP laptop. Almost!

You are a hero sir, and bring joy to my heart :)

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[[e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

Hi Jeff - I'm still here!

How's the family?


Pretty much what shovavnik said. Nothing approaches Shadowplan, of happy memory. However, the whole ecology of software has changed now. Not sure if Jeff could make it worthwhile these day.


2p


Andy

[skeezix [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

On Sun, 4 Sep 2016, ***@macqueens.net [SHADOW-DISCUSS] wrote:

# Pretty much what shovavnik said. Nothing approaches Shadowplan, of happy memory. However, the whole ecology of software has changed now. Not sure if Jeff
# could make it worthwhile these day.

Here be dragons. The app model is brutal at _best_ .. when people
ask me, I tell them to make purpose built, get it out the door and see if
it has legs; don't spend heaby time up front, jus make it pretty and make
it ship. Its sad, but thats nowadays... back in the day, we wanted desktop
level power in our hands, and we spend our sweet time trying. Its just not
viable now.

When I started, PalmGear etc woudl nab 15% of the sale for
themselves; when they started jacking it up (eventually 65% IIRC?) it was
making us all crazy. When I was selling through Sprint (the telephone
company), they'd eat up I think 85% or so, but I hoped for volume to make
up for that..

So Apple eating up 30% seems pretty solid.

Course, its 30% of $0 for 99% of the players ;)

Its a rigged game .. once you're at the top, the system is
designed to keep you at the top; its extremely hostile to new players ..
they just don't want new players, as there is already enough of them.
They'd rather have a solid set of good apps, and keep them there, so joe
user is happy, and joe dev is happy. A few disruptive crazy apps break
big, but generally its an all-lose situation for developers (and hence my
advice .. make your strike, quickly.. don't invest much, just try to see
if your app has legs; if it surprises you and does, then you go in deep,
but you need to find out first. Unless it has a captive audience of
course..)

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[[e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

Still here. Still miss the community that was ShadowPlan development. Spent many hours riding metro in Prague trying to "break" shadow and chasing bugs.

I was an ecco refugee and still look for a simple outline approach to project management with start, finish, and simple gantt chart view.

And, still quote you in our never-ending search for world peace through BBQ sauce.

[David Richardson [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none">&nbsp;</span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p><p dir="ltr">I haven't responded to this group in a loooong time but I had a little spark of joy seeing these emails.</p> <p dir="ltr">I have to say I miss shadowplan hugely. When I had the palm pre I got the palm emulator *purely* for shadowplan. Now I'm on android I tried todo+ which was the nearest I could find but is more or less useless in comparison.</p> <div class="quote">On 5 Sep 2016 01:13, &quot;skeezix ***@skeleton.org [SHADOW-DISCUSS]&quot; &lt;SHADOW-***@yahoogroups.com&gt; wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote" style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;">


<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">










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<div id="ygrp-text">


<p>On Sun, 4 Sep 2016, ***@macqueens.net [SHADOW-DISCUSS] wrote:<br>
<br>
# Pretty much what shovavnik said. Nothing approaches Shadowplan, of happy memory. However, the whole ecology of software has changed now. Not sure if Jeff<br>
# could make it worthwhile these day.<br>
<br>
Here be dragons. The app model is brutal at _best_ .. when people <br>
ask me, I tell them to make purpose built, get it out the door and see if <br>
it has legs; don&#39;t spend heaby time up front, jus make it pretty and make <br>
it ship. Its sad, but thats nowadays... back in the day, we wanted desktop <br>
level power in our hands, and we spend our sweet time trying. Its just not <br>
viable now.<br>
<br>
When I started, PalmGear etc woudl nab 15% of the sale for <br>
themselves; when they started jacking it up (eventually 65% IIRC?) it was <br>
making us all crazy. When I was selling through Sprint (the telephone <br>
company), they&#39;d eat up I think 85% or so, but I hoped for volume to make <br>
up for that..<br>
<br>
So Apple eating up 30% seems pretty solid. <br>
<br>
Course, its 30% of $0 for 99% of the players ;)<br>
<br>
Its a rigged game .. once you&#39;re at the top, the system is <br>
designed to keep you at the top; its extremely hostile to new players .. <br>
they just don&#39;t want new players, as there is already enough of them. <br>
They&#39;d rather have a solid set of good apps, and keep them there, so joe <br>
user is happy, and joe dev is happy. A few disruptive crazy apps break <br>
big, but generally its an all-lose situation for developers (and hence my <br>
advice .. make your strike, quickly.. don&#39;t invest much, just try to see <br>
if your app has legs; if it surprises you and does, then you go in deep, <br>
but you need to find out first. Unless it has a captive audience of <br>
course..)<br>
<br>
jeff<br>
<br>
--<br>
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.<br>
</p>

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[[e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

Wow, this came out of no where. I miss Shadowplan like crazy, like the others. I'm deep into the Mac/iOS environment. Nothing I have found comes close to Shadow. What I wouldn't give for a versions I could use.

Congrats on the kids, and best for all your future plans.


Don

['Daniel Venditelli, jr.' [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

When my Sony Clie died, so to did my use of Shadow. I went through many
alternatives when I moved to iOS (OmniGraffle, ToDo, Remember the Milk,
etc.); none quite fit. I've since moved on to Asana and Workflowy. The
first for task and project management, the second for writing/logging.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses but the primary thing I look for
now is a web based application with a strong iOS client. I just don't want
to have a single device or platform shift cause me to have to start over
again.

In the end though, the main problem remains, too many things to do, not
enough time to do them, and the thought of (de)prioritizing some of these
nascent projects out of existence to make the whole more achievable still
feels a bit drastic. I just hope the penalty isn't having to carry my todo
list into the after life as an endless chain of each undone item like some
GTD cursed version of Jacob Marley.

Cheers,
Daniel
@dvenditelli

[skeezix [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016, 'Daniel Venditelli, jr.' ***@gmail.com [SHADOW-DISCUSS] wrote:

# don't want to have a single device or platform shift cause me to have to
# start over again. In the end though, the main problem remains, too many
# things to do, not enough time to do them, and the thought of
# (de)prioritizing some of these nascent projects out of existence to make
# the whole more achievable still feels a bit drastic. I just hope the
# penalty isn't having to carry my todo list into the after life as an
# endless chain of each undone item like some GTD cursed version of Jacob
# Marley. 

I really dig your analogy and I think we all have similear fears
or regrets; it is really a denial-of-service attack against ourselves - it
is easy to add to a list and hard to tick off. As a result of knowing what
we haven't yet done, we induce anxiety from awareness ;) In the end, as
with keeping a tidy house (remembering I have 3 kids...), or cleaning out
a a storage room. you have to keep a few layers of goods, but let go a few
layers that have drifted to the bottom. You can't clutter up your head
forever, but can shelf to-dos in your 'someday tickler' file ...

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[skeezix [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016, 'Daniel Venditelli, jr.' ***@gmail.com [SHADOW-DISCUSS] wrote:

# none quite fit. I've since moved on to Asana and Workflowy. The first for task and project management, the second for writing/logging. 
# Both have their strengths and weaknesses but the primary thing I look for now is a web based application with a strong iOS client. I just don't want to
# have a single device or platform shift cause me to have to start over again.

So far the feature needs seem to be relatively simple (and a few
of the mentioned apps have developers on this list, so maybe they'll see
;) .. the basic list view, with some nice-to-have easy to hit buttons for
dating, and a meta-data notes add-on.

The development requirements so far are reasonable but a lot of
work .. ie: obviously iOS+Android woudl be desired (though just one ould
be doable), and the above request for a web app ..

Development these days for mobile apps tends to go either ..

- full native (commited to one device family)

- pseudo-native (like Xamarin, writing C# that targets both iOS
and Android)

- another step removed .. PhoneGap etc, where you essentialyl
write a web app in javascript, and use tools to make it feel reasonable
native on a given device; but its either cross-compiled to target device
from javacript, or is just a JS interpreer using the native devices
browser engine

- hybrid - put a lot of the code on the web, with native client
of some sort; the degree of how much work the client is doing vs the
website is another continuum. But think Facebook or the like .. a website,
that has all its real work in a web-available API, and a client that just
calls that API; so it feels native in the client, but 3/4 of the work is
actually out in th cloud.
--> this brings up questions about security, availability when
off-line, etc etc ..

... so the question of .. if such an app needs a web presence
'period', then it entirely changes how you do development (and of course
requires a significant additional deveoper timesink, since you're now
supporting 1 or more mobile apps, plus the web app which is essentially
significantly different and also includes server hosting needs.)

But if you at least start out with the mindset of 'someday' going
to a web app, you at least slow yourself a little to start but at the risk
of having a major easier port to web down the road.

I'm not sure how native a PHoneGap type app feals, will have to
look around.

(Gaming is a different style entirely, since it is assmed games
can use totally goofy UIs that don't feel native, and everyone is cool
with that; so in a way its much easier to write a cross platform game than
a productivity app, since a productivity app must feel native, and blend
nicely with the environment (ie: to keep the user productive :)

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[[e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

Of course there are still numerous fans of Shadow still out there. I have tried a new todo system every year or two and have found nothing that even comes close. My productivity, professional and personal, has suffered without this vital tool. I long ago abandoned Palm for Android (or was it Palm that abandoned me) and use Windows desktop at home and at school. Hopes of seeing even a shadow of Shadow return would be a major event for me.

I take heart this is the most active month on this group since January 2009 and we should push that record back even further as people come out of the woods. I know its a rough market and Jeff's kids are growing up and need support.


My needs are simpler than some but I want Android and Cloud of some sort. I need outline like function where components can be added to or fleshed out over time.


Of course a dream solution would be if it was ready for developing a packing list for a very rapid and panicked move from the USA to Canada in late November this year. I could manually add cases of Barbeque sauce to the packing list.

[skeezix [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016, ***@mindspring.com [SHADOW-DISCUSS] wrote:

# My needs are simpler than some but I want Android and Cloud of some sort. I need outline like function where components can be
# added to or fleshed out over time. 

See my posting earlier, which mentions some of the challenges and
the requirements people have noted so far.

One of the ideas I had awhile back was ..

In the 'list of lists' screen(s), would be a 3-state checkbox of
some sort which indicated (and allowed changing of):

- Local
- Cloud
- Both

(a 4th option maybe as well .. 'Home Cloud', for people running
their own (say) Shadow Server.)

When a list is created it'd be Local; a tap of the widget would
bump it to Both .. sync to cloud (if enabled) and local both, so that all
changes are local and synced to Shadow Server; a web edition could be
built that woudl view or view/edit that online edition, and when the
handheld started up it could check for last modify on the web version and
pull that copy down if newer. (Instant bad memories of Palm world, where
it'd have to sync between versions, but could have a simple model there
too.)

This woudl afford 'free backups' incase of loss of device, or even
multi-device sync for people who wanted to share their cloud-account
credentials, as well as a place for a web app to slide in.

To the user it'd just be a 3 state checkbox .. local, cloud, both;
nice and easy; but theres a lot of power there.

Thats how Shadow grew .. building tools, with power, that didn't
lock your workflow in.

So, thinking about things like that got me fired up enough to
start these emails off...

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

['Suzanne Franklin' [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

I'm still here, too, and still using ShadowPlan daily! If/when my Treo 680
dies, well, . . . . a part of me will die with it!



Migrating to Window 10 this summer and reinstalling software prompted me,
yet again, to see if there was a way to sync my Treo to the desktop. I was
delighted to find that, since my last quest, that drivers were now available
for my 64-bit computer that would let me sync! Very important, since I'd
recently lost half of a SP list (how???), and had to manually recreate it.
Still, the syncing is iffy - sometimes by Bluetooth, sometimes by cradle,
sometimes nothing will work. Still, I persevere, with renewed hope, just
limited expectations. Sometimes, that's enough. J



My use of SP is so simplistic, compared to most of you: strictly as a
multi-level outliner for my authors/books/what's read/what isn't, and my
grocery list by aisle. I've looked at other outliners for Android, but
nothing has EVER come close to SP for my purposes. If one DOES seem remotely
viable, its interface is so inelegant, compared to SP, that I can't stand to
use it.



I still use SmartListToGo on my Treo for ONE database (altho' there is a
passable Android substitute for it), but it's ShadowPlan that has me
carrying my Treo, with along with my Galaxy S7, anytime I leave the house.



So glad to see the responses to this query! Shovavnik summed it up well,
and, as another said, it did my heart good to see Shadow talk again! Hang in
there, Jeff!





Suzanne

[[e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

Hi Jeff,


That was an unexpected email...


I too, miss Shadow like crazy. Except I don't really miss it because I have stockpiled a small collection of Palms simply in order to run Shadow.


I use BB10 for my phone needs but am likely to switch to Android sometime simply because BB is a fading platform.


There is nothing that comes close to Shadow. There are several things that make it indispensible for me but if I had to distil it down to an absolute minimum it would be:

Filters Desktop version that handheld syncs to locally (not cloud please) Filters simple creating lists with headings and subsections Filters Notes That's it except I might not have emphasised filters enough


John

[[e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

I'm also still here...

Shadowplan was indeed the best! Thanks so much for creating it.


Currently, I'm using Checkvist ( https://checkvist.com/ https://checkvist.com/ ) for my todo list, outliner, and reference information container. It's great on the desktop - accessible via browser - but still a bit weak on Android.


Just in case you are seriously considering making something for us to become customers of...


Hierarchical task list Accessible via web, and Android. Doubtless the iOS contigent would want theirs as well. Either syncs between platforms, or hosted, and both web/desktop and Android access the same database Some calendar integration for due dates Attachments/notes on items highly desirable. Jeff, can you tell us more about what you are thinking?


Best regards,


Jim

[[e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

I didn't even realize I was still here until today. is there any Shadow type apps out there anymore? They sure are not mainstream android if they are.

[[e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

Still here! I use Shadow Plan Desktop as a Outliner and XML editor. My last Palm bit the dusk just recently.

It is Still one of my favorite Apps!

[Morgan Young [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

I miss my palm pilot like you would not believe. Android and Ios suck in
comparison.


Be safe; get prepared.
Morgan Young, EMT-P
***@gmail.com

[skeezix [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016, Morgan Young ***@gmail.com [SHADOW-DISCUSS] wrote:

# I miss my palm pilot like you would not believe.  Android and Ios suck in comparison.

Well, they get a lot right. But the low level charm, from the pain
and sweat we all did, is missing :) Sort of how we're all nostalgic for
old gear (big old 1980s stereos with big silver knobs!), or computing
equipment (dunno about you guys, but I still love a good old green/black
mono screen..), etc.

Theres still Palm OS emulator for IOS, right? StyleTap guys are
still going :)

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Neil Slater [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

Hi Jeff:

I had not heard of Style Tap before today. Went looking for it and couldn't find it in the Apple Store, so I used Google to find out that it is retired and no longer available, is no longer being updated, and support is also no longer available. :(

Sigh...

I get why you haven't done an iPad or android app, Jeff, but seriously, have YOU found anything out there to replace Shadow??? Free apps are worth every penny; low-cost apps are one step from useless, and I haven't bothered with the high-priced ones, 'cause they're probably no better.

I swear, dude, if I win big on the Lotto, I'm gonna hunt you down and wave enough cash under your nose to get you and Shadow Plan into the iOS world. Would two million do it?

Frustrated by computers in general,
Neil Slater
Regina


Sent with the assistance of Morse Code, slide rule, and abacus.

# I miss my palm pilot like you would not believe. Android and Ios suck in comparison.
Well, they get a lot right. But the low level charm, from the pain
and sweat we all did, is missing :) Sort of how we're all nostalgic for
old gear (big old 1980s stereos with big silver knobs!), or computing
equipment (dunno about you guys, but I still love a good old green/black
mono screen..), etc.
Theres still Palm OS emulator for IOS, right? StyleTap guys are
still going :)
jeff
--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[skeezix [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

On Sat, 3 Dec 2016, Neil Slater ***@gmail.com [SHADOW-DISCUSS] wrote:

# I had not heard of Style Tap before today. Went looking for it and couldn't find it in the Apple Store, so I used Google to find out that it is retired
# and no longer available, is no longer being updated, and support is also no longer available. :(

Doh! Maybe I shoudl go bug them .. I'll bring it up next time I
run into the guys, probably around Christmas or so :) Theres bi demand.. 2
or 3 people at least!

# I get why you haven't done an iPad or android app, Jeff, but seriously, have YOU found anything out there to replace Shadow??? Free apps are worth every
# penny; low-cost apps are one step from useless, and I haven't bothered with the high-priced ones, 'cause they're probably no better.

Well, back a month or two ago when I started stirring it up, it
was an experiment; obviously there is some interest, yet the conversation
died just as fast as it started..

Right now, I'm being beaten up good in RL work (essentially
startup mode for a large fragmented organization) .. I barely have a free
moment at all.

If I can get some free time again, I might well consider it; its a
very bad market though .. saturdated, full of impenetrable fluff, and a
few 'good' apps.. that are 'good enough' for those that are looking. I
would be deluding myself to think I could invest enough time to come up
with an Even Better app just like that, and that it would have a chance ..
ie: even if it was really good, it'd have to climb uphill through 500
$0.05 apps just to be seen. Its a very poor store design, that stacks it
against fresh blood.

But, I might make a 'crappy scrappy' app, just for fun, you see,
to see where it goes.

Because yeah, nothing out there right now satisfies me :)

But the trick is still.. what to deliver? A straight up flexible
task-app? one with item to item relations? or more a Hypercard database
type app with screens and columns and so on? or a half-datebook and
half-todo app? I don't have a flare for swooshy, I'm a performance guy...

# I swear, dude, if I win big on the Lotto, I'm gonna hunt you down and wave enough cash under your nose to get you and Shadow Plan into the iOS world.
# Would two million do it?

Thats neary enough rum ;)

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[Neil Slater [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

Jeff, I am serious about that offer. Of course, the odds aren't with me, dammit, even though I do buy a ticket every couple of weeks. But with prizes up to $60 million, if one person wins, that's more than enough to share someone who's worth it, and change a life for the better.

As for what I'd want to see, I just assume it would look and feel like our old friend from the Palm days. Except the digitizer wouldn't be wandering around the screen. Get rid of that problem, and I'd never have bought the iPad, and I would still be using my Tungsten.

Cheers,
Neil





Sent with the assistance of Morse Code, slide rule, and abacus.

Skeesix recently wrote:


Well, back a month or two ago when I started stirring it up, it
was an experiment; obviously there is some interest, yet the conversation
died just as fast as it started..

Right now, I'm being beaten up good in RL work (essentially
startup mode for a large fragmented organization) .. I barely have a free
moment at all.

If I can get some free time again, I might well consider it; its a
very bad market though .. saturdated, full of impenetrable fluff, and a
few 'good' apps.. that are 'good enough' for those that are looking. I
would be deluding myself to think I could invest enough time to come up
with an Even Better app just like that, and that it would have a chance ..
ie: even if it was really good, it'd have to climb uphill through 500
$0.05 apps just to be seen. Its a very poor store design, that stacks it
against fresh blood.

But, I might make a 'crappy scrappy' app, just for fun, you see,
to see where it goes.

Because yeah, nothing out there right now satisfies me :)

But the trick is still.. what to deliver? A straight up flexible
task-app? one with item to item relations? or more a Hypercard database
type app with screens and columns and so on? or a half-datebook and
half-todo app? I don't have a flare for swooshy, I'm a performance guy...

# I swear, dude, if I win big on the Lotto, I'm gonna hunt you down and wave enough cash under your nose to get you and Shadow Plan into the iOS world.
# Would two million do it?

Thats neary enough rum ;)

jeff

[Ray McDowell [e-mail] [SHADOW-DISCUSS]]

Hi. Has anyone besides me moved to Tiddlywiki?

From Wikipedia:

TiddlyWiki is an open-source single page application wiki in the form of a single HTML file that includes CSS, JavaScript, and the content. It is designed to be easy to customize and re-shape depending on application. It facilitates re-use of content by dividing it into small pieces called Tiddlers.
With Tiddlywiki I can create text items, checklists, folding lists and maintain a many to many set of relationships between items.

I use it for writing, cataloging, project and task management, journaling and note taking. Since it is browser based I can use in on my Windows Desktop, my Ubuntu Desktop and my Android. I personally use Firefox, but I believe many who use it utilize Chrome and even Safari.

Personally, I think Jeff could be a major contributor to the community if he decided to take an interest. It is free, but there have been several exchanges over the time I've been involved with it on how to use a customized Tiddlywiki as a paid application in the googel and apple stores. I don't know where they stand with that. 

At the very least he could review it to see the possibilities such an application could provide.
Personally, I bet dollars to donuts Jeff could take it and turn it into a prettier, multi-functional cross platform piece of work that would combine the poser of ShadowPlan and a Wiki-style database..
Just a thought because I keep looking for ways to use it like I did Shadowplan but without any of the limitations Shadowplan had to apply given its limitations because of the Palm platform.
Ray


From: "Neil Slater ***@gmail.com [SHADOW-DISCUSS]" <SHADOW-***@yahoogroups.com>
To: SHADOW-***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 12:44 PM
Subject: [SHADOW-DISCUSS] Re: Anyone still here?

  Jeff, I am serious about that offer. Of course, the odds aren't with me, dammit, even though I do buy a ticket every couple of weeks. But with prizes up to $60 million, if one person wins, that's more than enough to share someone who's worth it, and change a life for the better.

As for what I'd want to see, I just assume it would look and feel like our old friend from the Palm days. Except the digitizer wouldn't be wandering around the screen. Get rid of that problem, and I'd never have bought the iPad, and I would still be using my Tungsten.

Cheers,
Neil

Sent with the assistance of Morse Code, slide rule, and abacus.

Skeesix recently wrote:

Well, back a month or two ago when I started stirring it up, it
was an experiment; obviously there is some interest, yet the conversation
died just as fast as it started..

Right now, I'm being beaten up good in RL work (essentially
startup mode for a large fragmented organization) .. I barely have a free
moment at all.

If I can get some free time again, I might well consider it; its a
very bad market though .. saturdated, full of impenetrable fluff, and a
few 'good' apps.. that are 'good enough' for those that are looking. I
would be deluding myself to think I could invest enough time to come up
with an Even Better app just like that, and that it would have a chance ..
ie: even if it was really good, it'd have to climb uphill through 500
$0.05 apps just to be seen. Its a very poor store design, that stacks it
against fresh blood.

But, I might make a 'crappy scrappy' app, just for fun, you see,
to see where it goes.

Because yeah, nothing out there right now satisfies me :)

But the trick is still.. what to deliver? A straight up flexible
task-app? one with item to item relations? or more a Hypercard database
type app with screens and columns and so on? or a half-datebook and
half-todo app? I don't have a flare for swooshy, I'm a performance guy...

# I swear, dude, if I win big on the Lotto, I'm gonna hunt you down and wave enough cash under your nose to get you and Shadow Plan into the iOS world.
# Would two million do it?

Thats neary enough rum ;)

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